Hinweis: Sie befinden sich im Archiv des alten Forums von DOPPELADLER.COM. Dieses Forum wird nicht länger betrieben. Es ist nur mehr Lesezugriff möglich.
Sie erreichen das DOPPELADLER.COM FORUM nun unter ...

https://www.doppeladler.com/da/forum/index.php



Leichte Aufklärungspanzer für Polen

Wehrtechnik & Rüstung, Gemeinsame Außen- und Sicherheitspolitik
Antworten [phpBB Debug] PHP Warning: in file [ROOT]/vendor/twig/twig/lib/Twig/Extension/Core.php on line 1275: count(): Parameter must be an array or an object that implements Countable
theoderich
Beiträge: 20984
Registriert: 09. Sep 2008, 22:29
[phpBB Debug] PHP Warning: in file [ROOT]/vendor/twig/twig/lib/Twig/Extension/Core.php on line 1275: count(): Parameter must be an array or an object that implements Countable

Leichte Aufklärungspanzer für Polen

Beitrag von theoderich » 27. Mai 2015, 20:06

Bild

Die Rheinmetall-Division RMMV (Rheinmetall-MAN Military Vehicles) hat mit der Polska Grupa Zbrojeniowa (PGZ, Polnische Rüstungsgruppe) und dem polnischen Rüstungskonzern OBRUM vereinbart, in einem gemeinsamen Programm einen schwimmfähigen 6x6-Transportpanzer zu entwickeln. Das Fahrzeug soll Nachfolger des aus sowjetischer Produktion in den 1960er Jahren stammenden vorwiegend als Aufklärungspanzer verwendeten BRDM-2 (im Bild) werden. Die Entwicklung erfolgt mit Blick auf das LOTR-Programm (Lekki Opancerzony Transporter Rozpoznania – Transportpanzer mit dem Fähigkeitsprofil leichter geschützter Aufklärungspanzer).

Bei weniger als 20 Tonnen Gesamtgewicht soll das Fahrzeug für eine Nutzlast von 3,5 Tonnen ausgelegt sein. Der Fahrzeugentwurf und die Prototypenentwicklung sollen von den drei Partnern gemeinsam erfolgen mit Produktion in Polen.



Panzer für Polen

Der Rüstungskonzern Rheinmetall will gemeinsam mit einem lokalen Partner einen Panzerwagen für Polens Armee entwickeln. Dazu soll eine Gemeinschaftsfirma mit dem polnischen Unternehmen Polska Grupa Zbrojeniowa (PGZ) gegründet werden, wie der Düsseldorfer Konzern dem Handelsblatt (Mittwochsausgabe) bestätigte. Zusammen wollen die Firmen einen amphibischen Radpanzer bauen, der zu einem späteren Zeitpunkt auch exportiert werden soll.

Noch in diesem Jahr wollen PGZ und Rheinmetall mit der Entwicklung des Fahrzeuges beginnen, das vor allem als Spähfahrzeug eingesetzt werden soll. Die Auslieferung dürfte dann in drei bis vier Jahren anlaufen, wie es in Branchenkreisen hieß. Polen will rund 200 Radpanzer im Gesamtwert von über 300 Millionen Euro anschaffen.



Europäische Kooperation
Rheinmetall entwickelt neues gepanzertes Radfahrzeug mit polnischen Partnern



Hier ein älteres Request for Information zum Projekt LOTR:

    Informacja Dotyczaca Analizy Rynku w Zakresie Pozyskania "Lekkich Opancerzonych Transporterów Rozpoznawczych" - LOTR da Wojsk Ladowych

    W zwiazku z powyzszym, w przypadku posiadania przez Panstwa Firme zdolnosci wywiazania sie z ww. potrzeby resortu, prosze o przeslanie do IU w jezyku polskim nastepujacych informacji dotyczacych:

      1) opisu technicznego istniejacych oferowanych przez Panstwa Firme zdolnosci rozpoznawczych, w tym opis budowy i dzialania z zalaczonymi zdjeciami, a takze zestawienia podstawowych parametrow taktyczno-technicznych zawartych w zalaczniku nr 1 do ogloszenia;

      2) mozliwych do zaoferowania przez Panstwa Firme pojazdow rozpoznawczych w kontekscie wstepnych wymagan Sil Zbrojnych RP przedstawionych w zalaczniku nr 2 do ogloszenia, w tym m.in.:

        a) rodzaj napedu: 4x4 lub 6x6;

        b) plywalnosc (parametr kluczowy),

        c) odpornosc opancerzenia pojazdu wg STANAG 4569:

          - balistyczna ≥ 3

          - przeciwminowa ≥ 2a,

        d) odpornosc wg STANAG 4569 przeciw improwizowanym ladunkom wybuchowym (IED) w postaci detonujacych pociskow artyleryjskich na poziomie ≥ 4;

      3) szacunkowych kosztow pozyskania, eksplojatacji i wycofania z uzytkowania pojazdu, wg wzoru zamieszczonego w zalaczniku nr 3;

      4) czy w przeszlosci Panstwa Firma realizowala dostawe (dla kogo?) tego typu wyrobow lub ich komponentow o parametrach funkcjonalnych identycznych lub zblizonych do okreslonych w zalaczniku nr 2;

      5) szacunkowego terminu realizacji dostawy uwzgledniajacej nastepujace etapy:

        - dostarczenie wyrobu w wersji producenckiej,

        - dostosowanie wyrobu do wymagan Zamawiajacego,

        - testy funkcjonalne wyrobu,

        - wyposazenie Sil Zbrojnych RP w docelowe ilosci wyrobu;

      6) funkcjonujacego sytemu sieci serwisu technicznego w Polsce i na swiecie;

      7) danych teleadresowych osoby upowaznionej przez Panstwa Firme do kontaktow roboczych.


    In connection with the above, in case if your company is able to fulfill the above mentioned conditions for the needs of the ministry, please send this to IU, in Polish and with the following information relating to:

      1) technical description of existing offered by your company reconnaissance capabilities, including a description of the design and operation of attached photos, as well as compilation of basic tactical and technical parameters contained in Appendix No. 1 to the notice;

      2) its possible to offer for your company vehicles in the context of preliminary reconnaissance Polish Armed Forces requirements set out in Appendix 2 to the notice, including e. g.:

        a) type of drive: 4x4 or 6x6;

        b) buoyancy (key parameter)

        c) vehicle armor resistance STANAG 4569:

          - Ballistic ≥ 3

          - Mine Protection ≥ 2a,

        d) STANAG 4569 resistance against IEDs (IED) in the form of artillery projectile detonations of ≥ 4;

      3) the estimated costs of acquisition, keeping in service and withdrawal of the vehicle, according to the formula set out in Appendix 3;

      4) whether your company has realized logistics in the past (for who?) for products, whose functional parameters of components are identical or similar to those specified in Annex No. 2;

      5) The estimated date of delivery including the following steps:

        - Delivery of a product of the production version,

        - Adaptation of the product to customer requirements,

        - Functional testing of the product,

        - Equipping the Polish Armed Forces with the target amount of product;

      6) functioning maintenance system network in Poland and worldwide;

      7) the contact details of the person authorized by your company for communications.




Da gäbe es doch einen geeigneten Kandidaten aus Österreich (Pandur II: Ballistischer Schutz - STANAG 4569 Level 4; Minenschutz - STANAG 4569 Level 3a):



Und einen aus Italien (Höchstzulässiges Gesamtgewicht des VBTP: 18 Tonnen):



AMZ Kutno hat vor ein paar Jahren einen entsprechenden Demonstrator gebaut, den "Bóbr":

Zuletzt geändert von theoderich am 21. Feb 2016, 06:15, insgesamt 3-mal geändert.

theoderich
Beiträge: 20984
Registriert: 09. Sep 2008, 22:29
[phpBB Debug] PHP Warning: in file [ROOT]/vendor/twig/twig/lib/Twig/Extension/Core.php on line 1275: count(): Parameter must be an array or an object that implements Countable

Re: Leichte Aufklärungspanzer für Polen

Beitrag von theoderich » 06. Sep 2015, 20:36

E. Europe Developing Amphibious Vehicle Capabilities

Poland aims to acquire 200 new amphibious vehicles for an estimated €300 million (US

The new amphibious vehicle will also be offered in foreign military tenders. Poland has been developing a program to help neighboring Eastern European allies acquire weapons and military equipment, and because the BRDM-2 is operated by countries such as Romania, Hungary, Slovakia and Lithuania, the program could also support purchases of the new vehicle by some neighboring governments.

To facilitate such procurements, Warsaw last April unveiled plans to set up a regional defense fund. The Regional Security Assistance Program is designed to boost armament efforts by Poland’s neighboring allies through government, bank and export loans, a response to Russia’s rising military presence in Eastern Europe.


theoderich
Beiträge: 20984
Registriert: 09. Sep 2008, 22:29
[phpBB Debug] PHP Warning: in file [ROOT]/vendor/twig/twig/lib/Twig/Extension/Core.php on line 1275: count(): Parameter must be an array or an object that implements Countable

Re: Leichte Aufklärungspanzer für Polen

Beitrag von theoderich » 21. Feb 2016, 06:15

Rosomak sam zrobi kto 6x6?

Rozeszły się drogi PGZ i Rheinmetalla. Jeżeli Wojsko Polskie będzie zainteresowane transporterem opancerzonym 6x6, przedsiębiorstwo Rosomak może opracować go samodzielnie.

Jak dowiedział się RAPORT-wto prawdopodobnie nie zostanie zrealizowane polsko-niemieckie porozumienie obejmujące wspólne opracowanie nowego kołowego pojazdu opancerzonego w układzie 6x6 (Polsko-niemiecki transporter?, 2015-05-28). Ze względu na brak deklaracji Wojska Polskiego, dotyczących zainteresowania nowym pływającym transporterem opancerzonym, umowa nie jest obecnie realizowana, poinformował w Gliwicach, przy okazji finalizowania kontraktu na modernizację czołgów Leopard 2A4, Michael A. Kara, członek zarządu przedsiębiorstwa Rheinmetall Landsysteme (Umowa Bumaru Łabędy z Rheinmetallem, 2016-02-18).


PGZ and Rheinmetall have separated. If the Polish Army would be interested in a 6x6 armored personnel carrier, the company Rosomak could develop it themselves.

As RAPORT-wto has learned, the Polish-German agreement covering the joint development of a new 6x6 wheeled armored vehicle will probably not be completed. Due to the lack of declaration of the Polish Army, concerning the interest in a new amphibious armored personnel carrier, the agreement is not being implemented, Michael A. Kara, member of the board of the company Rheinmetall Landsysteme, reported on the occasion of finalizing the contract for modernizing the tanks Leopard 2A4 in Gliwice.


Niewypełnienie porozumienia nie oznacza jednak, że Polska Grupa Zbrojeniowa zrezygnuje ze stworzenia pływającego pojazdu w układzie 6x6. Jak dowiedział się RAPORT-wto, taki wóz może powstać na potrzeby Wojska Polskiego, które realizuje obecnie program lekkiego opancerzonego transportera rozpoznawczego (LOTR) Kleszcz (LOTR dla WP, 2013-08-03). W zakładach Rosomak opracowano wstępną koncepcję takiego pojazdu. Może on być samodzielnie opracowany i wytwarzany przez przedsiębiorstwo z Siemianowic Śląskich, bazując m.in. na doświadczeniach z wdrażania, produkcji i modernizacji transporterów opancerzonych Rosomak 8x8 (AMV 8x8 od Rosomaka dla ZEA, 2016-01-28; Rosomak z armatą 120 mm, 2015-09-04; Rosomak-M Concept, 2015-09-03).


The failure of the agreement does not mean, however, that Polska Grupa Zbrojeniowa is giving up the creation of an amphibious 6x6 vehicle. As RAPORT-wto has learned, the vehicle can be built on the needs of the Polish Army, which is currently implementing a program for a light armored reconnaissance transporter (LOTR) Kleszcz. The company Rosomak developed a preliminary concept for such a vehicle. It can be independently developed and manufactured by the company of Siemianowic Śląskie, based, among others, on the experience of implementation, production and modernization of the armored transporter Rosomak 8x8.


Das Reiten toter Pferde scheint im polnischen Verteidigungsministerium zur Perfektion gebracht worden zu sein. Aber Hauptsache "polonisation" und "heimische Wertschöpfung" um jeden Preis.

Benutzeravatar
Doppeladler
Site Admin
Beiträge: 1295
Registriert: 23. Mär 2005, 14:53
[phpBB Debug] PHP Warning: in file [ROOT]/vendor/twig/twig/lib/Twig/Extension/Core.php on line 1275: count(): Parameter must be an array or an object that implements Countable

Re: Leichte Aufklärungspanzer für Polen

Beitrag von Doppeladler » 22. Feb 2016, 09:15

Wenn man tatsächlich die gewonnenen Erfahrungen aus der Rosomak 8x8 Produktion nutzen will, dann wird das Ergebnis wohl so ähnlich aussehen:

Bild
Bild zeigt Patria AMV 6x6 - vielleicht bald Rosomak 6x6

theoderich
Beiträge: 20984
Registriert: 09. Sep 2008, 22:29
[phpBB Debug] PHP Warning: in file [ROOT]/vendor/twig/twig/lib/Twig/Extension/Core.php on line 1275: count(): Parameter must be an array or an object that implements Countable

Re: Leichte Aufklärungspanzer für Polen

Beitrag von theoderich » 22. Feb 2016, 10:03

Ursprünglich war tatsächlich der Kauf einer 6x6-Variante des "Rosomak" für Aufklärungszwecke geplant - insgesamt 32 Exemplare:

    SZULC Tomasz: Polish KTO Decision Nearing, in: Military Technology 9 (2002), p. 65 - 66

    The Polish Army originally formulated an ambitious requirement for as much as 3,000 armoured carriers (Kolowy Transporter Opancerzony, KTO), but this was reduced to some 250 vehicles in the official tender document. A new shift has appeared lately, however, and the programme is now expected to cover a first batch of 600 KTOs while an additional 400 vehicles will be procured at an unspecified future date.

    The original tender document dictated an 8x8 configuration, which is said to have provided the main impetus for the development of the 8x8 version of the PANDUR. However, considerable surprise was caused on 23 May, when the Polish MoD announced that the KTO order will actually cover a mix of 8x8 and 6x6 vehicles. The proportion between the two basic configurations has already been established but remains confidential. It appears that this sudden shift was mainly when not exclusively due to financial considerations, it being well known that the price of a 6x6 APC is much lower than the corresponding figure for the larger vehicle.



    SZULC Tomasz: Polish KTO Programme Progresses, in: Military Technology 8 (2004), p. 56 - 59

    The order is not as large as originally expected (which is hardly surprising), but still pretty impressive. A total of 690 vehicles will be purchased by 2013, including 311 in the turreted IFV configuration designated XC-360P, 125 APCs (XA-360P), 78 command vehicles, 41 armoured ambulances, 34 technical support vehicles (mobile repair shops), 44 engineer vehicles (including two dedicated engineer recce variants), 23 artillery vehicles and 32 6x6 recce and command vehicles. Early plans called for almost half the total being represented by 6x6 vehicles in a few variants, but this percentage has been progressively reduced. Patria would be delighted to develop a 6x6 variant of the AMV with Polish money which could then replace the older XA-series models, but for Poland the rationale for such a vehicle is increasingly doubtful. The development cost for a series of 30-odd vehicles would be very high, while the resulting design would not be much smaller and lighter than the "full-size" 8x8 model, its in-service costs would be only marginally lower, and the range of roles that the standard 8x8 version couldn't perform would be extremely limited.



    CZULDA Robert: Poland Summarises a Decade with the New Infantry Vehicle, in: Military Technology 2 (2015), p. 83

    Some Still had Doubts...

    Some Polish commentators now point out that the ROSOMAK is not just a string of successes, it also carries some existing problems and doubts. In April 2003, Poland signed a contract for 690 vehicles; 313 of them with OTO Melara’s HITFIST-30P turret (including 96 ROSOMAK-S with SPIKE-LR ATGMs), 125 with a remotely-controlled turret and a 12.7mm gun, 78 command vehicles (ROSOMAK-WD), 41 medical evacuation vehicles (ROSOMAK-WEM), 34 engineer evacuation vehicles (ROSOMAK-WRT), 23 artillery vehicles, 22 engineer vehicles, 17 chemical vehicles (ROSOMAK-RSK), and five in a configuration of engineer reconnaissance vehicles. Under the first contract, Poland wanted to acquire 32 reconnaissance vehicles in a 6x6 configuration. The latter has never been delivered, which contributes to the problems of Poland’s reconnaissance units. Poland based their ROSOMAK’s brigades on US STRYKER brigades, but whilst in the whole US reconnaissance battalion is equipped with STRYKERs, in Poland, only the company and recon platoons in command companies of infantry battalions have ROSOMAKs.

    Set in the first tender, a requirement of KTO ROSOMAK was that it should have swimming ability, which means that Poland’s AMVs have inferior armour compared to other AMVs. Furthermore, some claim that the Basic version used by mechanised units in Poland are greatly inferior to other enhanced versions (M-1/1M and M-3) that were deployed in Afghanistan until late 2014. These versions are equipped with better armour (but without the swimming ability), as well as additional communication and situational awareness sensors. Additionally, Polish experts state that the ROSOMAK should be equipped with new observation sensors - the standard ones used for the ATK Mk 44 BUSHMASTER II 30mm gun are black-and-white only. The Polish Army also wants new communication equipment (currently, the ROSOMAK only has one radio).

    Lack of sufficient armour, poor situational awareness and communication systems are not the only problems. Another cause for concern is armament. In a standard configuration, the ROSOMAK is equipped with the abovementioned 30mm gun. For many years, the Polish Army have asked for an integration of Rafael’s SPIKE-LR ATGMs (produced in Poland by Mesko). Currently, Poland is working on this integration. In early 2015, plans for KTO ROSOMAK to be armed with the SPIKE-LR resulted either on a new, remotely-controlled turret (ZSSW) or on the HITFIST-30P turret (two variants will be in service), both confirmed. The first deliveries to Poland’s mechanised infantry are scheduled for late 2016, which is long after the initial deadline.

    The RAK 120mm automatic breech loading mortar on ROSOMAK’s chassis has caused further delays too. According to a plan for 2015-2018, Poland wants to acquire eight divisional modules, each with two platoons and four M120K mortars. Initial works for this should have been finished by 30 September 2014, wowever, the deadline has been delayed again to May 2015. It is estimated that Poland’s first fully formed ROSOMAK brigade will not be ready before 2017.


Im Bereich der 4x4-Fahrzeuge gibt es nur einen Kandidaten, der auch mit amphibischen Eigenschaften aufwarten kann:


theoderich
Beiträge: 20984
Registriert: 09. Sep 2008, 22:29
[phpBB Debug] PHP Warning: in file [ROOT]/vendor/twig/twig/lib/Twig/Extension/Core.php on line 1275: count(): Parameter must be an array or an object that implements Countable

Re: Leichte Aufklärungspanzer für Polen

Beitrag von theoderich » 18. Dez 2016, 16:49

MSPO 2016: ZM Tarnów Shows ZSMU Remotely-Controlled Weapon Module (9. September 2016)

Bild


During MSPO 2016 in Kielce the Zakłady Mechaniczne in Tarnów (ZM Tarnów) unveiled for the first time the ZSMU-A5 remotely-controlled weapon module. This solution is intended as a weapons system for a next-generation light armoured reconnaissance vehicle (LOTR project, codenamed KLESZCZ) for the Polish Army.

The A5 variant is designed for the future LOTR light vehicle. Its weight is up to 330 kg. It is equipped either with a WKB-Bm/NSW 12.7 mm machinegun (up to 200 rounds) or a 40 mm grenade launcher (up to 32 grenades) as a primary weapon and a co-axial UKM-2000C/PKT 7,62 machinegun (up to 200 rounds). The A5 version is equipped with the ZMO-3 optoelectronic payload with thermal camera (target detection from up to 12 km), daylight camera and a laser rangefinder. The A5 can be equipped with various missiles and a smoke grenade launcher.


Antworten
[phpBB Debug] PHP Warning: in file [ROOT]/vendor/twig/twig/lib/Twig/Extension/Core.php on line 1275: count(): Parameter must be an array or an object that implements Countable
[phpBB Debug] PHP Warning: in file [ROOT]/vendor/twig/twig/lib/Twig/Extension/Core.php on line 1275: count(): Parameter must be an array or an object that implements Countable